The Open Sketchbook | Making Art Publicly + Interviewing Accomplished Creatives

A Quick Note
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[00:00:00]

Welcome, dear listener, to a quick pre introduction note from Zach here at the Open Sketchbook. It's so good to have you here. This episode one is delightful. I love it so much. It was a great conversation with Megan Fitzmartin, the multi-medium writer across several properties you've heard of. Very exciting.

It was also recorded while I was traveling, so my audio quality is a little bit lower. So first off, just thank you so much for your patience with this episode. Looking a little bit different than usual.

I do hope you find that the conversation is just as engaging as all the other episodes. And our, uh, small imperfections and audio are forgivable for the purposes of the conversation and your edification. Thank you so much.

[00:01:00]

Zach Armstrong: Dear listener, welcome back to another episode of the Open Sketchbook, where I'm interviewing in these even numbered seasons, uh, creatives, uh, in my network who we get to chat about, uh, the stuff they're good at, especially when it comes to writing.

Zach Armstrong: Creating and what it takes to do that, whether or not you are in a career. And today I have with me, uh, a writer creator, Meghan Fitzmartin, a fellow Darkwing Duck fan. And so, so obsessed with Totos, bless

Meghan Fitzmartin: Indeed.

Zach Armstrong: that when I signed up, when I signed up for, uh, a writing community, she did, I was charged by Bless the Rains Incorporated, which, uh.

Zach Armstrong: It was pretty funny.

A Few Career Highlights
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Zach Armstrong: uh, you may recognize her if you are one of the [00:02:00] many dedicated Supernatural fans as a writer on Supernatural. Uh, she, she did the classic work your way up, you know, sweat as you send in the script, move, uh, up the chain, and then boom. Uh, she's, uh, she's in the opening credits and has been writing also a lot of comics, especially Tim Drake as Robin, uh, and then one that I, at least I've seen you post a lot about Meghan.

Zach Armstrong: So I think you like it a lot. The Justice League. The Justice League, uh, r uh, RWBY

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes.

Zach Armstrong: Ruby. Thank

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes,

Zach Armstrong: Okay. Um, can tell the fandoms I'm not in currently, apparently. So the Justice League's Ruby Crossover

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes,

Zach Armstrong: which I believe, uh, I believe, didn't you see that on a plane?

Meghan Fitzmartin: I wrote it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was on a plane.

Zach Armstrong: well,

Meghan Fitzmartin: I wrote it

Zach Armstrong: Excuse me.

Meghan Fitzmartin: and,

Zach Armstrong: You wrote it

Meghan Fitzmartin: and then, yeah, I, you're right, you're right. I flew, I was flying back to London and the flight that I was on, I already liked this particular airline, and I then turned it on and they have a deal with Warner Brothers or whatever, and there was, justice League meets Ruby, and I was [00:03:00] like.

Meghan Fitzmartin: This is weird. This is weird. It's wonderful. This is weird. I wrote, I wrote this

Zach Armstrong: I wrote these

Meghan Fitzmartin: and now it's on a plane.

Zach Armstrong: actors said them,

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah, yeah.

Zach Armstrong: and now

Meghan Fitzmartin: Incredibly talented.

Zach Armstrong: I'm over the

Meghan Fitzmartin: And now I'm over. It's just me, my words, and this giant magic, uh, bird flying bird. Terrifying.

Zach Armstrong: Yeah. Yep. Um, you're straight out of Studio Ghibli. Straight out of Studio Ghibli. You're on a giant flying bird watching

Meghan Fitzmartin: Exactly. Exactly. Very strange

Zach Armstrong: That's right.

Creative Practices and Avoiding Burnout
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Zach Armstrong: So, uh, something that's come up in the other interviews, Meghan. Is, uh, what people have done for creative

Meghan Fitzmartin: Uhhuh.

Zach Armstrong: So I've talked to Reese Hopper who produces, uh, like

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm-hmm.

Zach Armstrong: and commercials and things, and he started out by writing, he blogged for I think a

Meghan Fitzmartin: Oh, cool. Wow.

Zach Armstrong: Um, and has done other creative

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: to [00:04:00] just break himself into what does it mean to practice,

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: and keep going. And I didn't even have that question prepped for lauren Shippen of The Bright Sessions, and she said, well, uh, what I decided to do was I bought, uh, you know, this old, this old, uh, CB radio, and I started creating, uh, uh, I think it's

Meghan Fitzmartin: Breaker Whiskey. Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: Breaker Whiskey.

Zach Armstrong: I started creating breaker whiskey every day, uh, to post it and also as practice. I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: here in the people who have maintained their creative practice in a way that's really integrated

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm-hmm.

Zach Armstrong: life. In a fantastic way, both of them doing these things full time. So what are your version of the creative exercises that you return to, whether they're daily or monthly?

Zach Armstrong: Like what are the creative exercises that you go into, for work?

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah, I, I think it's a great question because I, I'm very anti the right everyday message. I think that that isn't [00:05:00] helpful for everyone. I think it is helpful for some people, and I think that that's great, but. I, I think that a lot of times if you practice the write everyday method, you then are not taught how to deal with burnout, which is what happens if you write every day.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, and so I, I'm very much a person who, uh, like who, who ascribes to the method of like continuously learn. About your practice, learn about your body, learn about how your writing and, and how. 'cause so much we, we don't, especially whenever it comes to writing specifically, although different creative, uh, practices have different creative needs.

Meghan Fitzmartin: For me, when I am writing, I have, it, it, it involves my body and my brain as well as just like the regular writing. So I have to be very careful that, um, I am not burning out, but also that I. Am sleeping or I am eating or like that, I'm not getting stressed. I think something that my spouse and I have [00:06:00] worked a lot on is, um, I is recognizing when stress is building, um, so that it doesn't get to the critical point.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And weirdly, all of this does relate to practice because I think being incredibly in tune with my body has, has been a huge part of my creative practice because that is, that ensures that I can. Continue to write every day, or I can continue to create as often as possible. My, you know, my, my job, my day job is writing and so I, I can't afford to burn out on it.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um,

Zach Armstrong: Hmm.

Meghan Fitzmartin: so I have to really maintain, uh. A, a, a good relationship with my body. Um, so I think that's one. And then the other one is education. I, because I didn't go to school for this, I, I went to school to be a youth pastor, um, and then took a bit of a left turn. Uh, but I, I, so I don't, I don't always feel, and I, I sort of really support that.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Like I actually really loved that I did it that way because it [00:07:00] means that I don't get to rest on my laurels. It doesn't, it, like, I don't get to rest on like, oh, well I did all of the education or whatever. So I, uh know everything. And I, I don't have to like, keep educating myself.

Zach Armstrong: You don't have to. You have to, don't have to do the

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah, yeah,

Zach Armstrong: You can just jump straight to the top, which

Meghan Fitzmartin: yeah. Exactly. So I, I sort of,

Zach Armstrong: you've gone to culinary school or art

Meghan Fitzmartin: right, exactly. Like you, you do have, like, part of it is the, the just sort of constant, um, education and, and part of that is practice and part of that is learning. And part of that is, um, watching. As many things as you can. Like once again, it depends on what your particular creative practice is.

Meghan Fitzmartin: If it's audio, then listening to a bunch of different shows. I can always tell when someone is like, wants to do a thing, but they're not super serious about it. If they have it. Like I'll ask them, have you listened to anything? What are you listening to now? And they're like, nah. Like, oh, cool. Okay. So you, that's part of it.

Meghan Fitzmartin: That's part of the practice.

Zach Armstrong: Right. [00:08:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I like what you say about, um, the, the parameters around which you're evaluating the right everyday

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm-hmm.

Zach Armstrong: It's because you have to, you have to. Survive in the

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah,

Zach Armstrong: to then create the thing. Because if you, if you spiral, and like for, for instance, for me, I carry, I carry my stress in my

Meghan Fitzmartin: yeah, yeah.

Zach Armstrong: So if I bro, every day and I spiraled, I may end up with like a

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah. Absolutely.

Zach Armstrong: can't, you know, and then I'm gonna be in pain. Or maybe if something goes really bad, then I really have to recover and I shouldn't be exerting myself in trying

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: and then I'm not working. So. It's absolutely a holistic

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: And even this, um, even this, uh, 15 day creative challenge I did that kind of broke through my, I had too big of a scope whenever I would think

Meghan Fitzmartin: I love it. Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: I would be too much of a

Meghan Fitzmartin: A hundred percent.

Zach Armstrong: me not, there's a lot of things I have [00:09:00] done, but as far as the things that are more narrative or storytelling that are close to my heart, that's what kept

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah, it absolutely will. A hundred percent.

Zach Armstrong: The first thing that really kind of took my hand and led me through this was, uh, the aforementioned Reese Hopper. It was this creative challenge where I just, I created 15 pieces in a row, one a date. They were very

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: and he said, he said, you really should not

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: than 45 minutes on this. Like if you're spending more than 45 minutes on it, like you can wrap it up, but like, make the

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm.

Zach Armstrong: spending more than that, you know, the next

Meghan Fitzmartin: It's, that's funny. I, I have like a deadline list for myself every day and it, I, I just realized I do something very similar where like for each project that I have to work on, I give a sort of number, amount of like this I need, I want to spend, or I can spend two hours on it, but I cannot spend more than that because otherwise I will burn out in the same sort of thing that you're talking about.

Zach Armstrong: absolutely. And that really broke through for me. It broke through perfectionism

Meghan Fitzmartin: love [00:10:00] that.

Zach Armstrong: The scope creep that was just inherent in how I think about these

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah,

Zach Armstrong: And it's the thing where I didn't continue it right after that 15 days. Um, but in a desire to finish my most recent batch, batch of half finished

Meghan Fitzmartin: yeah.

Zach Armstrong: I was like, well.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: My reaction to loving something is to then talk to other people who love that thing. So let me do some interviews with creatives who also make things.

The Importance of Community in Creative Work
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Zach Armstrong: So I think that's a really good, that's a really good guide for people where. Literally just to be able to create, to research, and then to create and iterate and then make the connections where people see the work.

Zach Armstrong: And then if you're wanting to work in those spaces, then you start to get the work. That does take an amount of discipline. if you, if you kind of overreach into, I gotta push, I gotta push, I gotta push, I gotta push, I gotta push, you might just

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes,

Zach Armstrong: And I'll

Meghan Fitzmartin: you not, might

Zach Armstrong: seen. Yeah, you

Meghan Fitzmartin: you will

Zach Armstrong: some point and the, [00:11:00] sometimes the thing that breaks, I'll mention this because you'll look at people who have big completed projects and they seem to have done it sort of solo, which I kind of think is generally a myth,

Meghan Fitzmartin: it? Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: of done it mostly on their own power. Um, pretty much every time I've gotten to meet or talk to those people or hear their backstory, they gave up everything

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah,

Zach Armstrong: Right. They don't actually have, they don't have

Meghan Fitzmartin: yeah,

Zach Armstrong: They haven't talked to their family

Meghan Fitzmartin: yeah.

Zach Armstrong: Right. Um, they have given up everything for that. And then that ends up, um, you know, you're not holistically sustained just by making one good piece of

Meghan Fitzmartin: No, and, and frankly. To me that is a very capitalistic approach and something that I'm really trying to like counter. 'cause I recognize that there is something in me that is very, that, that wants to just give up everything and work on the project. And I've had to over the past few years. You know, getting into a relationship was very helpful for this actually.

Meghan Fitzmartin: But over the past few years has been very much a thing of [00:12:00] like, okay, so why do I feel like I need to spend all of my time on this? And it is not because that makes good art. That is what in capitalism we have decided makes good art. 'cause we can, we can measure that. But

Zach Armstrong: Mm.

Meghan Fitzmartin: in reality, if you look at, like, we just went to, I'm in London right now and we went to, so, uh, go see the National Gallery and

Zach Armstrong: Hmm.

Meghan Fitzmartin: it's gorgeous.

Meghan Fitzmartin: All of these paintings from all of these absolute greats and absolute legends. And, um, they had family like part of the conversation that you, when you talk about. Picasso or more specifically? Um, not, Picasso is not who I mean, but Van Gogh, like when you talk about Van Gogh, you talk about his sister. You talk or you talk about his brother, you talk about like his friends.

Meghan Fitzmartin: You, you, you talk about the community that creates art because it is a meaningful aspect of bringing art into the world.

Zach Armstrong: Absolutely. You think about, um, anybody [00:13:00] who's gotten into, uh, literary

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm-hmm.

Zach Armstrong: or literary history with the classics of, um, of, uh, you know, Tolkien and

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah,

Zach Armstrong: as they were friends who wrote together in a group of

Meghan Fitzmartin: yeah, yeah,

Zach Armstrong: Right, and you, you think about the stories of many folks who end up writing a work of art that is regarded as great or is, or is at least famous, um, or really is absolutely lovely. There's often, not all the time, but there's often some kind of stability in their

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes, yes.

Zach Armstrong: the space to create that. arises,

Meghan Fitzmartin: exactly it. Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: that's often gonna be, they're at least depending on when and where they live. They're at least comfortably middle class, if not

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm-hmm.

Zach Armstrong: And they simply have the time and their needs are

Meghan Fitzmartin: Sure. Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: And then, like you said, the more you dig into most artists that you may have heard of, the more you start to see, oh, they really did have people around them that enabled and encouraged and[00:14:00]

Meghan Fitzmartin: And spurred on. Absolutely. Like when I, when I first moved to this was a really like, I think, sort of mind shifting thing from when I, when I first moved to la, um, I got connected with a group of women through a class that I took. , I got connected with this group, uh, and they.

Meghan Fitzmartin: We and the woman who sort of started it up or ran it, um, she, her thing was always like, women are pit toge are pitted against each other a lot at that time. So I, I came to LA in 2011, I think, which is like sort of the tail end of the, the myth of like the, the thing like the lone woman in a writer's room.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And so she has to like be mean and, and fight for all of those moments. And my friend Eva was. Very much like, well, men hire their friends. I feel like we should be friends and hire each other. And that was such a simple mindset and I was like, yeah, no, that's exactly it. It's not [00:15:00] about, because the truth of the matter is, especially in creative practices, there's no world in which, um, we're actually competing for the jobs.

Meghan Fitzmartin: I think, I think anytime competition comes into play in something, um, it is only meant to bring us down as artists. It's not actually meant to spur us on. Um, it's, it's always the question of, well, who is this actually benefiting? Um, because in reality, like what you write is gonna be different than what, what I write.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Even if we are very similar and even if we like similar things.

Zach Armstrong: Right.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Life process has such a very different, has led you to such a very different. Not conclusions, but like way in which you see the world in the same way that like my life and, and the way the, the choices that I've made have been very different from how someone else sees the world.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And so

Zach Armstrong: Mm.

Meghan Fitzmartin: we're not in competition for the same gig. It's if I don't get that gig and you do usually, and in the best version of this, I, [00:16:00] you were chosen because your way in on this idea is more in line or more in keeping or, or more idealistic towards whatever that project needs versus mine. And so there cannot be this sense of, uh, so I, I, I got connected with all of these different women and I started to read them and I was like, oh yeah, I'm not in, I'm not in competition with you because you write so different than me and I'll put you up for a job, if ever I hear of it because, uh, I think that your voice is just as important as my voice and is, is saying.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Something different than mine, and that's what I think is so beautiful about all of it.

Zach Armstrong: It takes a lot of time and putting yourself out there with getting work done, with figuring out your balance to figure out what it looks like to find good community, to have a healthy collaborative mindset,

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: And a healthy mindset of, okay, well how do I advance my work? And like you said, how do I advance my work without, you know. Burning out,

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

[00:17:00]

Zach Armstrong: Meghan, you have written for podcasts. That's, is that

Meghan Fitzmartin: I have, yeah.

Zach Armstrong: Now I, yes. You've written for podcasts.

Adapting Stories Across Different Mediums
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Zach Armstrong: So how is the role of writing a character different when you're writing for audio only versus the other mediums you've worked in? You know, being comic books, tv, movies.

Meghan Fitzmartin: So this is a particular, like favorite topic of mine. I love to talk about writing in different mediums. I dunno that I have anything specific on character, because for me, the whole thing, I mean, I'm, I'm a clearly a very holistic writer, uh, as we've been discussing. But I, I am, every single project that I take on, I, I look at it from the perspective of like.

Meghan Fitzmartin: What format is this going to be in? And that I think really helps because I think character, I think character sort of straightforwardly is, is, [00:18:00] is its own thing that rises above mediums. You have to know who this character is on sort of every level. Um, you, you have to really dive in, you have to really understand.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Sometimes I don't understand until like I get into a story concept, but. The, the character in and of itself I think sort of rises above the medium because it has to sort of exist on its own. 'cause ultimately, I think at the end of the, the day, I think any, anything can be adapted. Not everything should, maybe, but I think anything can be adapted.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, and that is because story transcends medium. We're always constantly trying to figure out what medium to put something in. But ultimately, I think story transcends medium. So you can. You can generally put them in any type of medium. Um, a a really good example of this is, um, Hunger Games. I think the way that the Hunger Games movie adapted from a very, uh, from a first [00:19:00] person YA novel that is very internal, it's very much in Katniss Everdeen's head to.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Then how do you, how do you adapt that into a movie that's a really complex and like complicated thing to, to pull out and make into a feature? Um,

Zach Armstrong: Yeah.

Meghan Fitzmartin: so what I think is so genius that the filmmakers did is go, well, what is the, what is, I mean, I don't think that they did exactly this, but, but the question that I always ask myself is like, what is the joy of this medium?

Meghan Fitzmartin: What is the interesting thing about this medium? What does this medium evoke or create? That is different from another medium that it's coming from. If I'm adapting or just from my own head. Um,

Meghan Fitzmartin: the, so for the example of Hunger Games visual, right? We, we can, we are able to like see the visuals but we're also able to get outside of Katine's head.

Meghan Fitzmartin: So we see the game board and the game board I think to me is one of the biggest sort of examples of how actually this does adapt really well. 'cause we're not, 'cause [00:20:00] you. Especially when it's adaptation. But the truth is, whenever we are trying to get an idea out of our head, we are adapting it because it will never be exactly like it is in our head.

Meghan Fitzmartin: the, so for the example of Hunger Games visual, right? We, we can, we are able to like see the visuals but we're also able to get outside of Katine's head.

Meghan Fitzmartin: So we see the game board and the game board I think to me is one of the biggest sort of examples of how actually this does adapt really well. 'cause we're not, 'cause you. Especially when it's adaptation. But the truth is, whenever we are trying to get an idea out of our head, we are adapting it because it will never be exactly like it is in our head.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And so-

Zach Armstrong: Yes.

Meghan Fitzmartin: only, we're only, we, we only adapt. We are only creatures of adaptation. And so we, we will never get it right. And I think the important thing is that you will never, it will never have a one-to-one. Uh. On the page versus the screen versus the audio. Um, a friend of mine, Eileen [00:21:00] Kwang, who is a fantastic novelist and she is a screenwriter and she's directing, um, a, an Emily Henry book-to-movie.

Meghan Fitzmartin: She had an interview recently that I read that she posted about, and I was like, oh, this is so brilliant. And this is so true, is that like adaptation should actually not be direct interpretations of the thing that they're doing.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Because you could just read that book, you can just watch that movie. You can just, whatever, like whatever version of it was originally.

Meghan Fitzmartin: You can just, like, there's no point rehashing that. Um, the, the joy is in discovering something new about it. And ideally if it is, um, if you were jumping from one medium to another. It is telling that story in a new context and, and looking at it from a different perspective. And what can this medium give you that this other medium can't?

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, so that, that whenever I go into whatever, if, if I'm at a adapting one thing to another or if I'm, even if I'm coming up with original ideas [00:22:00] and looking at it specifically, I go like, what is this medium's, what is cool about this medium? What is the primary function of this medium? And pulling that out of the idea and of the character and, and putting that on display in the character in this way for that medium.

Zach Armstrong: I, I love that question of what's special about the medium, what's the joy

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: I think is one of the, the, the version you said at the start there that, um. Just really resonated with me. 'cause you look at what's the joy

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: and then you, in my head, I'm having this visual of like the Venn diagram where you

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: your story.

Overlaying Stories in Different Mediums
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Zach Armstrong: So if you're going to a movie and you have a book, you overlay that story and you overlay the

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: and you say, okay, what. What can the joy of this medium, especially like, the stuff that's specific to this medium, really draw out we can point to in, you know, in this

Meghan Fitzmartin: Mm-hmm.

Meghan Fitzmartin: I think especially In adaptation, [00:23:00] you're always looking for like, what is, what is the feeling that people get that made this book, movie, comic, whatever. What is the feeling that may, that, that make people love this? How can I take that feeling and put it over here?

Challenges of Adapting Comics to Audio
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Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, we did, I just did a, um, it's just, it's just out now.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, a, an audio book for, uh, grant Morrison's All Star Superman. And

Zach Armstrong: Okay.

Meghan Fitzmartin: the, the question that I got rightly so was how do you do a comic book for audio. Um,

Zach Armstrong: Yeah.

Meghan Fitzmartin: a fair question.

Zach Armstrong: How do you do Superman in audio

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah. Yeah. A fair question. Absolutely fair. Um, especially because for, uh, that Frank Quietly art is so known and is so beloved, and is so impactful for so many [00:24:00] people, how do you express that in an audio book? And when I, you know, I mulled over it. I mulled over it, and the thing that I sort of got to at the end of it was.

Meghan Fitzmartin: What you're, what we are trying to do is capture that feeling and put it into a different format. So we do that a little bit with music. We do it a little bit with sound effects, but ultimately we are doing it.

The Intimacy of Audio Mediums
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Meghan Fitzmartin: So for me, audio is a very intimate 'cause. It is, it, it's, um, in your head, you, you are a comic or even a movie.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Is sort of separate from you, you are acting as observer, whereas in audio you are experiencing it. And that's why a lot of people find that they get parasocial relationships with their like chat podcasts that they like listen to. 'cause you feel like you are there in the moment.

Writing Across Multiple Mediums
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Meghan Fitzmartin: And I think frankly, I, if you are in this, in this day and age, you want to be a professional writer. You both, you, there is no one type of writing [00:25:00] I think you do.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Uh, it is multim mediums now. Um, and also you have to learn. To be your own PR person. That's a separate thing. But frankly, like we do need to, I think as writers recognize that like we are writing in multiple mediums and we have to know why that matters. One of my, one of my, like, this is a complete tangent, but one of my, my biggest like, uh, frustrations is the, uh.

The Evolution of TV and Features
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Meghan Fitzmartin: A lot of people in features came over to television, but they didn't understand what television was, and so they treated it like features. And so now TV looks a little different like it than it used to. And

Zach Armstrong: Yes,

Meghan Fitzmartin: um, there is not a real understanding of what, what TV is versus what features are. And so we're sort of, we're sort of trying to claw that understanding back.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, and, and we will, we always will. But it, it is, I think. The further into these creative spaces that we get, the more we have to [00:26:00] recognize what, you know, what the joy of each of these mediums are.

Zach Armstrong: Oh my goodness. I, I feel like I have 10 different follow up questions from that.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah. Fair. I'm here. Let's go. I'm.

Zach Armstrong: Talking about the joy of, of different mediums and the modern writer as far as pursuing that as a career has to write different mediums. Where's that observation coming from? That a writer will have to write across different mediums. Uh, Obviously even, you know, dear listener or dear viewer, you can scrub back and listen to my introduction of Meghan at the start of this. And I listed what, uh, I listed, uh, tv.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Uh huh.

Zach Armstrong: Comics and film. Right, off the start there, that was four different mediums.

Pursuing a Writing Career Across Mediums
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Zach Armstrong: So what, tell me about your experience as a, a professional writer, where you realized that you were going to have to be familiar with all of these.

Zach Armstrong: Uh, in, in the, in the industry

Meghan Fitzmartin: So I'm lucky in that I wanted to be, um, I had [00:27:00] always wanted just to tell stories. Um.

Zach Armstrong: Oh, and wanted to tell across different

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah, like I knew that I wanted to write animation. I knew that I wanted to write audio. I, I, I went to school to be a youth pastor, like I said, but the first screenwriting class I took was because it was supposed to be writing for radio and tv.

Meghan Fitzmartin: It was not at all for radio, and it was only for tv. But I wanted originally to learn how to write radio because when I was growing up, there was an,

Zach Armstrong: You listen to

Meghan Fitzmartin: it was Adventures In Odyssey It was always Adventures In Odyssey And I,

Zach Armstrong: D. Deep,

Meghan Fitzmartin: I,

Zach Armstrong: for you. X nineties

Meghan Fitzmartin: I know it's such a. Anytime I say it's like, it's like the dark lore or like anytime somebody mentions it and you see like one head turn, you're like, oh, we had, how, how, how is the, the, uh, trauma recovery coming on your end of things?

Meghan Fitzmartin: Like, it's such a, it's such a vibe. Um,

Zach Armstrong: Right,

Meghan Fitzmartin: hon but honestly, truly, like, I think, you know, barring its rather dubious sort of origins. Uh, and, and the parent company that it comes from, Adventures In Odyssey is one of the few [00:28:00] places where I'm like, this actually like it in the nineties and early two thousands.

Meghan Fitzmartin: It's got some really good storytelling. Like it's, it's

Zach Armstrong: Very, very well

Meghan Fitzmartin: really well produced, really well structured. Like, it just, it, it, frankly, I get a lot of notes sometimes from, from people in audio, from executives who should know better, I got one note once that was very much like, but how will we know that this person is, uh, not in the forest, but they're in a city?

Meghan Fitzmartin: I was like.

Meghan Fitzmartin: The sounds, the sounds sound different. The sound, the forest sounds, sound different from the city. Sound like they're very different.

Zach Armstrong: Uh

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, and I learned that from Adventures In Odyssey. Like I learned how much you could trust the audience from Adventures Odyssey. Um, and I really, and I was, I, it was really impactful and it was really, um.

Meghan Fitzmartin: I, I feel like what I wanted to do, the reason I went to school to be a youth pastor is 'cause I wanted to tell people that they were [00:29:00] loved. And that was a huge part for me for Adventures In Odyssey So I wanted to learn how to tell those stories. If I had created, like, if I had a, a youth group, um, I wanted to do it that way.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And then I realized that I loved, uh, I loved writing scripts as well, so, um, moved across the country. I pursued TV originally because I knew that there was just more. Money, frankly, uh, it, it, if I knew that sort of strategic about this, I knew that if I pursued television, that I could make the money, that I could do other things that would not get me as much money.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um. And so, and even when I was so, you know, I pursued and I got onto Supernatural and that's when I was sort of like, 'cause at the time when I got onto Supernatural, it was 2016 and that was a show that everyone was like, well this is running for Forever was the only like, consistent job in tv. So it was like, until the boys are done, like you're sort of, you're okay.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And I was like, cool. Great. I, I am. This [00:30:00] plate is spinning fine. I don't have to worry about this plate. I'm gonna focus on wanting to do animation, wanting to do comics, and wanting to do audio. So that's when I, uh, did a, a class on like writing comics. 'cause I didn't know anything about that. It's when I, uh, was talking to Lauren about making my own.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um,

Zach Armstrong: Mm-hmm.

Meghan Fitzmartin: and at the time I had a lot of people even in the room who were very much like, you should really only focus on. Tv. Like, you can't, all of these other things are, are just gonna distract you. Like you really, and I get where that was coming from because,

Zach Armstrong: sure.

Meghan Fitzmartin: they, these things are, they are and generally can be all encompassing.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um,

Zach Armstrong: Yeah, and I, I could see, I could see how the industry relationships may be siloed,

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: the progress you make of the work you do and the people who know

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: you get more work. 'cause more people know you in your work that like, say your work in TV doesn't necessarily translate over to

Meghan Fitzmartin: Not at all.

Zach Armstrong: like a comic book person. You might be, you might be [00:31:00] writing stuff, everybody is watching on Netflix or at 8:00 PM on prime time if they're boomers. Um. then you go over to the comic book people with the comic book money, and they're like, who?

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah,

Zach Armstrong: No, I don't watch that

Meghan Fitzmartin: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zach Armstrong: Yeah.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um,

Zach Armstrong: I could see where that comes from,

Meghan Fitzmartin: a hundred percent. Like I, I definitely get.

Zach Armstrong: you broke through

Meghan Fitzmartin: I get what the idea behind it was. And I think that was true pre COVID. Um, and then I think COVID, I really sort of sped up what was always gonna happen, which was the boom of streaming TV sort of burst a little bit, and the jobs that seemed to be so prevalent and to go on forever.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, we're just not as commonly found. And so it didn't matter how many people that you knew on that ladder, it's still difficult to, I mean, you know, it's still difficult to get [00:32:00] jobs now, and I know of stories of people who. W we're at showrunner level, having their own shows that are now, like going back to like when they not being showrunners and going back to like being the number two in the room.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And look, they're still making money, but like, it is not the same. And I don't think that it will be the same. And frankly, I think that's okay. I think it's okay that that burst. It burst a little bit. Um, but I was so, so grateful that I had. Pursued these other avenues of income. And I was talking with a couple different, um, showrunner friends of mine now who are like, yeah, I, I do comics and animation and, you know, like, it is, it is more common now because frankly, ultimately at the very end of everything, the money isn't there.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, the money that that was coming in from dubious spaces, from venture capitalist or whatever is [00:33:00] not as prevalent. And so, um, if you want to make this your career, then, you know, and I'm not saying like day jobs are absolutely fine if you don't want to do a day job and you only wanna focus on this, you have to do multiple forms of mediums.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um, and I think that's, that's the. The thing that I try and get out with people is that like, like, you know, I, I, I am no stranger to day jobs and I will never be a stranger to a day job. That is the nature of the game. But,

Zach Armstrong: Yeah.

Meghan Fitzmartin: um, I find that the people who are currently working pretty consistently, generally tend to be, uh, across mediums.

Zach Armstrong: really, the, the theme of this episode, which I didn't really plan, but it popped out and it was the right one, is, uh, adaption

Meghan Fitzmartin: I, I,

Zach Armstrong: from.

Meghan Fitzmartin: so sorry that that's my fault. I tend to talk a lot about adaptation 'cause I care about it so much.

[00:34:00]

...aaaaaand T-Pain.
---

Zach Armstrong: So this, it's the theme of adaptation across, um, I mean across writing and, uh, across how to write different mediums and then, and then the career of writing. So what, what is, I think this'll be the, the.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Everything's fine.

Zach Armstrong: uh, one more. Everything's

Meghan Fitzmartin: I'm on a boat, so sometimes things fall.

Zach Armstrong: Hold on. You're in a boat

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes,

Zach Armstrong: in

Meghan Fitzmartin: yes,

Zach Armstrong: It's a houseboat from the looks of the

Meghan Fitzmartin: yes. Yeah.

Zach Armstrong: This, this is, um, I'm really glad you waited to drop

Meghan Fitzmartin: Tell this lower piece right here.

Zach Armstrong: Because it would've been, well, I've got the episodes for the open sketchbook and now this is episode one of interviewing people who live or live at least temporarily in

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes.

Zach Armstrong: out of my pure fascination with,

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes.

Zach Armstrong: um.

Meghan's Advice For Creatives
---

Zach Armstrong: So the [00:35:00] last, the last question I'll ask is what is, what is a piece of wisdom that you have distilled across these years since you went to LA regarding especially in regards to mediums and burnout and how you pursue your career? What's a piece of wisdom you carry with you that you would want to hand somebody who's about to take the big steps to pursue the kind of career that you've had?

Meghan Fitzmartin: Thank you for telling me it's been 14 years because I could not do that math. Um, have not. I'm just, I'm just here. I remember when I first wanted to move to la or when I first started to try and write, or when I would tell people that I wanted to write, and a number of people, a number of people would say. If you can do anything else, do it.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And I found that to be the most condescending piece of nothing. Um, especially when you're [00:36:00] first moving and you're like really excited about it, that like, that is useless, is very much not helpful. And so until, until I was older and then I was like, oh, I understand what they mean because being a creative.

Meghan Fitzmartin: There is a level of sacrifice and a lot of creatives now are very much like, oh, but you know, uh, we deserve to have well-paying jobs. We do. I deserve to be paid well. I deserve to be paid for my skillset. Um, but historically that is not the case. Um,

Meghan Fitzmartin: you will have to fight for that quite often. Um,

Meghan Fitzmartin: and. It may not always look how you want it to look.

Meghan Fitzmartin: And that doesn't mean that you failed. It means that you are being a creative and that is a very scary, very heavy, I think frustration not [00:37:00] 'cause we're, what we're doing is, I think what we're doing is very important. I get, I get a little put off sometimes when people are a little too esoteric about it, but I do think that what we do as creatives are important.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um. So I think, hmm. I have two pieces of, of advice.

The Importance of Creative Communities
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Meghan Fitzmartin: One is, and we've talked about this a little bit already, whenever you get there, find your friends and they may not remain your friends. Sometimes you will have friendship breakups that happens in creative processes. Find the next group. Find the people that will support you and that you know, will encourage you and.

Meghan Fitzmartin: It, it doesn't mean that you guys are copacetic on everything, and in fact, you shouldn't be. In fact, find people that are different than you and who like different things than you because that will make you a better creative. But what you, what they need to do is like you and, and believe in you. And that that is, I think, the main focus.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Like look for those groups and be, be a person who is part of that [00:38:00] group. Don't just like expect other people to. Gas you up and make you feel good, but you are, if you are in a community, you have a responsibility to each other. And I firmly believe that. I firmly believe that we have responsibilities to each other.

Meghan Fitzmartin: I am choosing to be your friend. I'm taking on the responsibility of that. Um, so that's my, that's one piece.

Finding Fun in Creative Work
---

Meghan Fitzmartin: And my other piece is to have fun. And that's such a, it sounds like a trite thing, but what I mean is sometimes it's not fun sometimes what you're writing. Is not fun. And that's, that's okay. Like that's part, it's a job at the end of the day.

Meghan Fitzmartin: But like, look for that fun. Then remember that this is a fun thing. It's a fun thing that we get to do. Sure. But like, people can tell when you're not enjoying the thing that you're writing. So like find, find your way in, like. It, it, it can be a chicken [00:39:00] soup commercial, but find your way in

Zach Armstrong: Mm-hmm.

Meghan Fitzmartin: like,

Zach Armstrong: Absolutely.

Meghan Fitzmartin: I just went to see, um, mission I, possible final reckoning last night, which I love.

Zach Armstrong: So

Meghan Fitzmartin: was so fun, so fun.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Everything about that movie. I was like, this is just fun and I'm having a fun time. And like, sure, they're saying things and I'm enjoying the things that they're saying, but ultimately at the end of the day, I'm having a blast watching Tom Cruise and a submarine. Like it's, it's knowing when you're being too message and knowing when to just like put Tom Cruise in a submarine.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Let that be. Let that be a good 20 minutes, and that's fine.

Zach Armstrong: Dear listener, um, remember next time you're working, if you're getting a little frustrated, you're a little burned out, take a

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yes.

Zach Armstrong: ask yourself, I just put Tom Cruise in the submarine here? So, uh, Meghan, [00:40:00] where, uh, if people are interested in your work, where should they go to read about your work and see what's, what's, uh, coming

Meghan Fitzmartin: Yeah, I am Meg Fitz, eight nine on. All of the socials, every social, I still have them all. Uh, I don't post on everyone. I do, I do post a lot more on like Blue Sky and Instagram than probably the rest of them, but I do, I'm on all of them. Um, and I have a substack, which you know about, I'm current constantly working on it 'cause I am horrible at being consistent and knowing what it is.

Meghan Fitzmartin: Um.

Zach Armstrong: I wasn't gonna call

Meghan Fitzmartin: Oh no, you should absolutely, you should call me out on it. 'cause I'm horrible at it and I know it. I, I have, I have no idea how to do it, but I do as much as I can. Um, so anyway, that's a, a constant sort of thread on my own work. So you, we never, dear listener, you never have to know exactly what you're doing in order to do it.

Meghan Fitzmartin: 'cause you can [00:41:00] pivot.

Zach Armstrong: Alongside dear listener to you, you being impressed with Meghan. Let this also be a reminder that every creative behind your favorite pieces of art are real people. And that every, and that every big project that gets finished and put in front of your eyes or your ears is a small miracle.

Meghan Fitzmartin: It is not, it's, it's not just a miracle. It is truly an act of God. I think every time you actually get to consume something, it's really impressive. So, well done to you, Zach, for, for putting this together 'cause I think this is incredibly delightful. So well done.

Zach Armstrong: Oh, well. Well, thank you. Thank you. Uh, and with that daily

Meghan Fitzmartin: Okay.

Zach Armstrong: will see you next time. ​