Fiction and Reality, the Two Worlds of the Novelist | Interview with Cass Morris
[00:00:00]
Welcome Cass!
---
Zach Armstrong: Welcome back, Dear Listener to The Open Sketchbook. And today I have with us author Cass Morris. She wrote and is writing the Aven Cycle Roman flavored fan historical fantasy, initially released by DAW Books and the only book series to actually fascinate me in depth with fictional politics.
Zach Armstrong: That's a hundred percent true. three outta the four books are out: From Unseen Fire, Give Way To Night, which was released exactly on my 32nd birthday, I might add. [00:01:00] Mm-hmm. And then The Bloodstained Shade. And she is one of the co-hosts of the World Building for Masochists Podcast. A five time Hugo finalist.
Zach Armstrong: Which is that, that's some brilliant consistency right there alongside, Marshall, Ryan Mariska and Natanya Baron. She's had some of the coolest jobs at the intersection of literature and education.
Zach Armstrong: So, and is also, an old friend of mine across our own little world building adventure. So Cass, it's a lovely to have you on.
Reconnecting with Cass Morris
---
Cass Morris: It's a delight to be here, Zach. I was so excited when you emailed me about this.
Zach Armstrong: When I emailed Cass, Dear Listener, I initially, of course said, hey, I wanna talk about World Building. Cass, of course, is, as we mentioned, on World Building for Masochists. A long, long running podcast, a fantastic show. And has done plenty of that, herself with The Aven Cycle.
Zach Armstrong: And, but what we're gonna start off with today is the thread that you've probably been hearing come out of my various attempts at other topics with the other, [00:02:00] the other guests, right.
Creative Processes and Challenges
---
Zach Armstrong: We were just asking, okay, what does your creative process actually look like?
Zach Armstrong: So with regards to like getting the words out on a page...
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: What has worked for you?
Zach Armstrong: Are there, is there like a discipline practice? Is it an environment, is it a particular scent of candles that went out of stock and you had to buy a crate of like, like what? What's worked for you?
Cass Morris: It is funny you said like there's no one right way because that is true even within a person. And from project to project, I work on a lot of different shapes of project. you know, a, a novel people understand what a novel is and working on that is So much a matter of, but in share, do the work. The words don't exist until you create them.
Cass Morris: They just don't, no one else can do that for you. You have to do it. And sometimes it's a grind and sometimes it's not. I like sprinting. This is something I'll do. It started off doing it during, NaNoWriMo before [00:03:00] it collapsed like a flan and a cupboard. but back in the day I would do that. And the Twitter before Twitter collapsed like a flan in a cupboard.
Cass Morris: they did, they had a nano sprints. And it was challenges and they'd be like, 15 minutes, here's a prompt, maybe it might be a word or a sentence or a bit of poetry or a picture. And it's like, write as much as you can for 15 minutes. Then we'll take a five minute break, then it's a 20 minute one. it's very much like sort of the, Pomodoro technique, which I'm only just starting to like actually learn about and implement in a more strategic way, which is, I believe that's 20, 25 and five, I think 25 on five off. I think that's how it works out. but for me, that works. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when I'm struggling to focus, those help because it's like a set amount of time. It puts a little bit of like the right amount of pressure on me to focus up, to be like, here, get [00:04:00] this done.
Cass Morris: It's not sustainable forever, but. It is very much good for those times when I know I'm likely to be scattered if I don't do that to myself. But other shapes of project don't work the same way
Unique Day Job and Its Influence
---
Zach Armstrong: Mm-hmm.
Cass Morris: my day job, I work for a company that produces mythology themed summer camps, and it's a delightful job. It's so much fun and throughout most of the year.
Cass Morris: We're developing the stories, the quests that the kids go on during the summer, and each week is a different story. It's so cool. I love my job, I'm so lucky. but a quest is a very oddly shaped thing. It's, it is difficult unless you've seen one in action to, to really understand what it is you're writing when you write one of these, because it's not a script.
Cass Morris: It's not exactly an outline. It's not exactly a lot of things. It, you need a story treatment. But you also need beats and challenges, [00:05:00] but they're not directly narrative. You are creating; what we do is we, we create situations and scenarios with mythological characters from all kinds of different pantheons, but the goal is to put it in the kids' hands.
Cass Morris: it's a type of immersive entertainment and writing that is such a different, such a different beast.
Zach Armstrong: Does that involve running around camp and doing different things?
Cass Morris: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Zach Armstrong: you're, you're writing a romp is like the word that comes to mind. It's a romp!
Cass Morris: It is. And the, the, the thing about immersive entertainment is that lots of people who are in this field, when they're working on something, they know they've got a space. It's a space they probably have control of. You know, even it's just for a short time. They've rented it, they know what it looks like, they know what it's dimensions are, and there's usually only one at a time.
Cass Morris: And you know, they may, they may expand and franchise, but they're developing in one at a time. We run in 16 different locations across the country. We work in public parks. We have no control over the environment. [00:06:00] each location has a different size of camp, which might be anywhere from like 12 to 240 campers.
Cass Morris: So participants, the ca-, the cast size, you know, the, the number of performers involved might be anything from three to 24. And so the things that we create have to be flexible enough. Have to be modular enough that each individual quest guide on the ground at their location can take and assemble those pieces and, and create the, the shape that's gonna be best for their location.
Cass Morris: And they know their kids, they know their park, they know what that running around looks like, like the park that I do this at. I know things sort of have to work a certain certain way because the main path is a loop around a lake. And so I know I, like, I have to sort of work like in, in a circular fashion with the story.
Cass Morris: It's, it's gonna be this many beats around the lake and Oh Yeah, there's huge sight line problems, across [00:07:00] this water. And it's just, it's so much fun. But it's such an interesting challenge and we are still developing how to do that. We change it a little bit every year. we will soon be doing our review of the past year and how it went and making our tweaks for the upcoming year.
Cass Morris: We're starting to get a really good system down. our tweaks are getting smaller each year that we need to make to like the base product, the templates that we, that we work with. But we're also like, I only write a couple of them each year myself. We have contributing writers who come in on a contract basis that write the others, and then my boss and I are the overview.
Cass Morris: We're sort of like running the writer's room. I do the editing on all of them to try to ensure consistency of formatting and things like that. It's just such a different shape, and that's, that's just those two things are an example, like the novel and the quest. I have to prepare my mind differently for those things.
Zach Armstrong: Yeah. The, the quest sounds like you [00:08:00] are, you are preparing. A modular toolkit.
Cass Morris: Exactly. Right.
Zach Armstrong: That is much more, the way you talk about it in writer's room feels very appropriate. And it...
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: Like the stories I've heard out of people writing for TV or;
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: ...because there are so many moving parts and you can't just write, you know, a wall of fire appears and moves across, you know, moves across the, you know,
Cass Morris: They don't let me play with fire at camp.
Zach Armstrong: ...reboot Frazier right.
Zach Armstrong: Yeah.
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: Right. It's like you have to have considerations for all the places that'll go. So there's, I find when I'm in a collaborative space like
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: For me and how I'm wired, that's much easier because as somebody who both loves people but also has in the past had a lot of people pleasing, wrapped up in that, if I can just -
Cass Morris: What? What?
Zach Armstrong: ...and then that person happy.
Zach Armstrong: Me safe because that person happy, that's easy for me to do. Right. But
Cass Morris: Zach, [00:09:00] I have no idea what that might feel like.
Zach Armstrong: Not at all!
Cass Morris: Not a clue. Not a clue.
Zach Armstrong: Sure, because I know for me, like looking at the medium of writing, 'cause I, I think I mentioned this on one other episode, I have, to the tune of 40,000 words a novel somewhere that I was writing, before I met Meghan, my now wife. And I knew with that, that was a herculean effort because there was not somebody asking me for
Cass Morris: Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: I could go get from a teacher or an authority figure, right?
Cass Morris: Yep. Yep.
Zach Armstrong: Sitting down and yes, there was an audience in mind at the end, but really it was more for me of like a, a brute act of creation because it was so bottled up in me. I just wanted to
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: express.
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: So, when, what did it look like to get to the point where you, you had to figure out the sprints? Did [00:10:00] you, did you have a point where it was just tough to ever sit down and get going?
Zach Armstrong: Hmm.
Cass Morris: Yeah, definitely.
Balancing Creative Work and Day Job
---
Cass Morris: It's, it's come and gone a few times in my life, usually as I'm adjusting to either a new job or like a new set of conditions within a job. Because my day jobs, I've been very fortunate, that I've had day jobs I really like, for the most part. They're also tend to be writing intensive jobs.
Zach Armstrong: Yeah.
Cass Morris: It's a blessing and a curse in some ways. like when I was working at the Shakespeare Center, I was doing so much academic writing that. After. About like the first year and a half, I sort of looked around and I was like, I have not written anything creative in,
Zach Armstrong: Hmm.
Cass Morris: in months. I couldn't remember the last time because I just, I came home, my brain felt squeezed out and I had to, I had to put myself back in the habit, and I started by saying like, all right, a hundred words a day, you can do that.
Cass Morris: You can write a hundred words a day after work. After dinner something. And once I was doing that consistently, this was, this was way back 2011 when I [00:11:00] first started drafting From Unseen Fire or the thing that would eventually become From Unseen Fire. once I had a hundred words at a time, I bumped it up.
Cass Morris: It's like, okay, now can you get in habit of doing 200 words a day? Can you do 500? Can you do a thousand? And at that point you've really start, you start to get having a book. But the other thing I've learned about myself and the way I work is that that is not sustainable indefinitely. that, that thousand word mark,
Zach Armstrong: Yeah.
Cass Morris: I go through periods where I can do that very, very well, and I go through periods where it's like, that is too much and I'm gonna break my brain if I keep trying. And learning to be gentle with myself through those, those more fallow periods is an ongoing process. It's, it's tough. I, when it's like, I feel like I feel like I should be writing or I want to write, but once again, brain is just squeezed out.
Cass Morris: Having the creative job that I do now that I love that is so much fun... [00:12:00] sometimes there's just nothing left at the end of the day. It does, and sometimes it's just, it's like I'll sit down and it's like, Nope. Coming up empty today. At that point, I usually try to find a way to refill. Like I'm learning, I have learning.
Cass Morris: I, I, I am learning. I have learned, I'm still learning when, what signals my brain and body are giving me that I'll be better served by close the laptop. Stop staring at it. Stop trying to make it happen. Go do something else. Go read a book. Go. Draw something, go do a craft. Go watch a movie. Go play Mario Kart, do something else tonight, and then see if tomorrow you've got a little more juice.
Cass Morris: And that's, that works. It's, but it's, it's never consistent, like it's never gonna be totally consistent because it's so fluctuating with the patterns of my day job and then the patterns of just me of, of where my energy and emotions are at any given point in [00:13:00] time.
Zach Armstrong: Absolutely. And I think that's such a good, that's such a good realistic picture for, for people to hear because. so often a lot of the, the questions and advice, and I remember, I remember some discussions around this while you were working at the Shakespeare Center. It was like, how do you get the creative work done and make it good and get it launched?
Zach Armstrong: And maybe that can become a full-time thing for, for a lot of people. It's not even when
Cass Morris: So few.
Zach Armstrong: Listener. I do not hype Cass up just because she's my friend. Yes, there is oomph in there because she's my friend. That's a good thing. But Cass's writing is, is very good. And so I'm sure
Cass Morris: Thank you.
Zach Armstrong: there's, a lot of, I, I mean, there's a lot of like identity and legitimacy mindset to have around being an author and then saying, oh, well they, you know, this didn't take me full time.
Cass Morris: Yeah, and it's, it's funny how it changes once you have published something, because [00:14:00] suddenly there is an expectation out there. And even if your deadlines are very loose as mine, with DAW books were. Even if the deadline is isn't a harsh one, you still know there's an expectation, whether it's from your publisher, whether it's from readers, and it's, you know, people talk about publish or perish in academia.
Zach Armstrong: Right.
Cass Morris: It's a thing in fiction writing too. It's less formal, you know, you're not getting graded. It's not, you're not being put up for tenure, but you start to feel like you're falling behind if you're not putting out a book every year or every other year. Which, right now...
Realities of the Publishing Industry
---
Cass Morris: I haven't put out once since 2023. And
Zach Armstrong: Sure. Sure.
Cass Morris: it's like, fortunately I have other creative things that keep me, you know, like the podcast that keep me in the world, that keep me in people's minds, hopefully.
Cass Morris: But that's the terror that starts to creep in if you're not producing consistently. It's like, oh no, oh no, I could lose the, it's, it's taken me so much to claw to where [00:15:00] I am and I could slip.
Zach Armstrong: It goes back to like the, the environment of writing as well. I talked about, I couldn't remember the name of frigging Walden of all things Henry David Thoreau on a previous one, but it's the mix of like, yes, he was a bit secluded and he didn't hide the fact that he was getting some help. But the vibe around the book that most people have is like, oh, he was alone.
Zach Armstrong: It was survivalist. It's like, no, his mom did his laundry.
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: It's like, so, and he mentioned he wasn't far from town, so he wasn't like creating a complete fiction, but like his mom did his laundry and he would go get dinner with friends. And so it's more of the, the difference between the misconception and and what was really happening, but it's still a good picture even with that difference there of like, he, he had the resources, the situation...
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm. ...
Zach Armstrong: to go to a cabin and just write. Because when I think about it that way, instead of like teasing one of the greats, you know, with quote unquote one of the greats, quote, [00:16:00] and I still enjoy Walden very much.
Zach Armstrong: It's got some lovely prose in it. Right. But as much as I like to tease it, it's like actually, yeah, going to a cabin and then seeing my friends twice a week and my mom does my laundry, I would write so much.
Cass Morris: Right?! Nice work if you can get it right. Like, but it's just, it is not the, the publishing industry is not shaped like that. I don't know if I ever really was, but it's certainly not now. The mid list is dwindling more than expanding. Almost every writer that you can think of either has a day job or has spouse or family who can support them.
Cass Morris: It's one of those two things, almost none of us make enough from writing to live on. and people get this idea in their heads. And I, I blame Hollywood in a lot of ways because I feel like screenwriters have no idea how the publishing industry works. For one thing, the way, they portray it sometimes I'm like, what?
Cass Morris: What? No. But they give this idea that like, oh, every author gets glamorous [00:17:00] book tours and these fancy parties, and it's like, no, no, no. They didn't wanna send me, as far as Williamsburg, I had to fight for that. Like I had to fight for them to send me from Richmond to Williamsburg.
Zach Armstrong: Richmond, Virginia,
Cass Morris: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's about an hour.
Cass Morris: Like, and it was a town that I went to college in. It's like, no, I'm pretty sure the Barnes and Noble there would like to have me. Like, I'm, I'm pretty. Can we ask, can we ask them? it's not, gonna cost you anything. Just can we ask? So yeah, it's just, it's not glamorous, it's not a glamorous lifestyle over.
Zach Armstrong: Not, not at all. So it really, the, it, it comes down to the question of like, okay, if you're wanting to create more, if you're wanting to find the discipline, learn your own. and I've been on that journey as well with the business. Learn your own, like. Recognizing where your own energy's at...
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: What you're in the mood for.
Zach Armstrong: And not just mood in a casual way, but in a, like, no, I'm, I cannot focus right now and I need to rest.
Cass Morris: [00:18:00] Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: to recharge because I will not be productive if I just sit here and smash the keyboard.
Cass Morris: Norm.
Zach Armstrong: Trying to claim a creative discipline and figure it out. You also want to at some point keep in mind, okay, well, like why am I doing this?
Zach Armstrong: Because if you're doing this because you saw an episode of TV where you're like, I wanna be a writer, and that sounds awesome, that's probably not gonna get you so far. But if you're writing because there's a story you wanna tell,
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: You feel like it's super profound, or you went to a random online book generator and you're like, it was like, oh, Pokemon in space, I can do that, right?
Zach Armstrong: Like. By the way, I have, I have half a, you know, I have half a mind to go and just do that on a random thing and use that as my writing exercises.
Cass Morris: It there, there are worst things you could do. That's fan fiction. That's, I mean, and Fanfic is one of the things I do to remind myself that I enjoy writing. When I hit points where I'm like, I hate everything. I can't tell stories. I forget. I for, I feel like I've forgotten how to do it. The [00:19:00] gear switch I'll throw is I will go write fan fiction.
Zach Armstrong: I love it.
Cass Morris: Just for pure, because that's fanfiction is an act of pure joy. You can't expect anything else out of it. And I've written Fanfic since I was a kid, and so it's a place I go back to when I need to remember that I do in fact like doing this. And I do. I love telling stories. I love shaping characters. I love character dynamics.
Cass Morris: The interpersonal mixed with, as you mentioned, the political, like I love, I love the questions of how we people decide to live in a society together. I like exploring all of that through the lens of fantasy. something I'm fond of saying is that you can get away with a lot of things because people will accept certain truths if it's said by somebody in a wizard's hat way more than they will if just a normal person tells them.
Zach Armstrong: I believe
Cass Morris: It's so true.
Zach Armstrong: In your books. By the way, that's a -
Cass Morris: You should, you should. He is, he's almost always right about things. And if [00:20:00] he isn't, then Lattona is, or Vivia. Or Vivia is his sister. Um
The Essence of Storytelling
---
Cass Morris: But it's, it is, it's because I want, I want to tell stories that I always have been. I was the kid who, my dollhouse, I had a notebook full of like their family trees and the things that happened in this dollhouse from the time, like little composition notebook.
Zach Armstrong: Amazing.
Cass Morris: It's intrinsic to who I am. I, I have always lived at the intersection of storytelling, performance, and education. I think those are three things I have always loved, and it's what has shaped my career and the various forms that creativity has taken within my career. I've been very fortunate in that regard.
Cass Morris: even if the book publishing is, has never been the part of my career that, that kept a roof over my head or my, my, my kid, my, or kept my kitties in kibble.
Zach Armstrong: Right.
Cass Morris: But I do it because I do it because I love it
The Writing Community
---
Cass Morris: I, the other nice thing, like I, that's what I was saying is that the process [00:21:00] changes after you've been published and there is this other pressure on you-
Zach Armstrong: Yeah. -
Cass Morris: in a different way.
Cass Morris: You also become part of a community. In a different way. At least you do. If you're willing to, I know there are some writers who like want to view other writers as competition or who just want to stay isolated and I'm like, A, you're wrong, and B, you're boring. So like one of the great, great joys of doing the World Building For Masochists podcast is how many writers I get to talk to and just see their brains and how they work and being part, and it's not like, I'm not saying you can't be part of a community.
Cass Morris: Before you're published, there are certainly many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many ways to have a writing community before then. But having a community of other people who know what it feels like to get a royalty check for 63 cents, who know what it's like to either get the edit letter from your editor when you're not at all prepared for it, or to have been waiting six months for it, desperate for it, and she still hasn't like.
Cass Morris: Other people who know the [00:22:00] particular trials and tribulations of being in the industry, it's really helpful. And they're also, for the most part, really amazing people. And so I want, I also want to keep doing this, to keep being part of that community 'cause it's really fun and they're great people.
The Joy of Writing Politics
---
Zach Armstrong: Dear Listener, when Cass talks about enjoying writing the politics, it really comes through like, I can't emphasize enough that other books, I'll just glaze over. Or they'll just do it at a very entry level and
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: ...basic concepts that we're familiar with. Or, you know, what is it at the start of the, the prequels, like negotiating trade routes?
Zach Armstrong: I think the Star Wars prequels,
Cass Morris: Yeah. Weird. How could like negotiating tariffs ever be a relevant story for people to think about? That's.
Zach Armstrong: Well, it's It is, it is relevant. I was, I guess my, my reference there is that it was, it's relatively surface level. Like they don't
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: In the politics with the characters. I'll say it that
Cass Morris: No, we, we never learn anything about The goods and commodities that are [00:23:00] being traded and why they're important to those people. Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: mechanics of interstellar trade
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: Star Wars, where it's all hyperspace lanes, many, many, many light years apart, but in, in, The Aven Cycle, there is a lot of discussion about things even going on in neighborhoods with, with like the colleges and
Cass Morris: Love them.
Zach Armstrong: what's going on, on what streets.
Zach Armstrong: Right. And then, and just like hearing about what's going on on, the streets, but like who has, what kinds of power
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: and then how that informs who's going there to just like buddy up with them or figure out what they need. All of this sort of thing. It's just, it's, it's really lovely Cass.
Zach Armstrong: I'm not sure I've really gone ham to your face about how much I love
Cass Morris: Well, thank you.
Zach Armstrong: I think Cass, a number of years ago, I posted on Instagram, [00:24:00] my, every time the, the first editions of, From Unseen Fire, under a certain price. I grab a few and I quite a
Cass Morris: Remember you telling me that
Zach Armstrong: that.
Zach Armstrong: I think you eventually saw on Instagram or Facebook, and you were like, wait, why does Zach have eight copies
Cass Morris: of this book.
Zach Armstrong: fire, especially like the hardcover that's not in print anymore. I'm like, I give them away to my friends all the time
Cass Morris: That's great.
Zach Armstrong: yeah, it's awesome. It's awesome. It also feels like a bit of a collector's item now.
Cass Morris: Yeah. Yeah. The original cover
Zach Armstrong: for for sad reasons. but, you know, my novelty is not worth it, but I have, I have the novelty now.
Cass Morris: you do?
Zach Armstrong: Indeed. Indeed
World Building Insights
---
Zach Armstrong: . alright, so we'll shift a bit towards world building. So
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: talking about the process and it was fun to hear you talk about, out with the 100, 200
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: right, where it's like. Whatever it looks like for you [00:25:00] to manage a consistent, you Dear Listener, to manage a consistent creative habit that move towards your goal.
Zach Armstrong: Whether it's, I just want to enjoy creating
Zach Armstrong: or, you know, I do want to write something that I'd love to get out there for people to enjoy or publish or whatever. You know, starting with the bike size, I think will help you used to it, If
Cass Morris: Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: realized yet,
Cass Morris: It'll make you, it'll make you realize whether or not you truly want to, to make it a habit and, and make it something that you continue to do. just starting off, rather than trying, sitting down and saying, I'm going to write a novel now is huge and can be really intimidating, but
Zach Armstrong: Yep,
Cass Morris: A hundred words, anybody can write a hundred words. Right.
Cass Morris: And I go back to that, like when, when I've had struggle periods or, and I've needed to get myself back into writing. or even just like this past month or so, when it's my camp season and I'm exhausted and like falling asleep at seven 30 in the [00:26:00] evening because I'm that tired, I will go back to a thing and be like, okay, can you write literally anything?
Cass Morris: Can you put literally any of your brain into this today? And I think like I can look at, I've got my next to me on my desk, my bullet journal, which has all my writing things in it. It's like there were days when it was like, yes, I wrote 12 words while sitting in my car on my lunch break.
Zach Armstrong: huh.
Cass Morris: But it kept, it kept, but it keeps me in the project.
Cass Morris: It keeps my head there. So like now that camp season's over, I'm ready to jump back in. I haven't like lost the momentum entirely.
Zach Armstrong: Yes. I find that with, and I do this with work projects all the time, working with podcasts and, and videos for, for companies where I will have to start the outline of a thing. Then I marinate on it and when I come back to
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: I'm four times as efficient as I would've been if I just tried to power through
Zach Armstrong: like all at
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: You know, I have to sit and I have to marinate and something happens in my unconscious and then I can come and just produce, which is, which is always [00:27:00] fun.
Zach Armstrong: we'll talk a little bit about world building.
Cass Morris: Yeah,
Zach Armstrong: cause I think it's technically illegal to have you on without doing that.
Cass Morris: there's probably a statute somewhere.
Zach Armstrong: Probably a precept, of some sort.
Zach Armstrong: so what, generally speaking, why would somebody spend time building a world in which a story is gonna happen? What purpose does that serve?
The Importance of Authenticity in World Building
---
Cass Morris: It gives you the authenticity of the space, which in turn is what gives your characters emotional veracity.
Zach Armstrong: Hmm.
Cass Morris: I think that that's sort of the chain because like we are all products of our circumstances, Right.
Cass Morris: We are products of our families, our educations, our socioeconomic class, our race, our gen, like all these things make us who we are.
Cass Morris: And that's true for your characters too. And I think for me at least, finding their emotional reactions to things comes from knowing the world [00:28:00] that they exist in and the world that has shaped them. And especially if you've got, you know. I, I, I tend to write multi POV things. The thing I'm working on right now is only two points of view, and it's very strange for me because usually I'm like, cast of thousands.
Cass Morris: Excellent. But e, whether, whether it's point of view characters or not, your world is going to have affected different characters in different ways and showing that to a reader, showing how the world is kind and unkind to different kinds of people, showing how it gives advantages and throws obstacles up and.
Cass Morris: That's, that's what I don't know. That's where the juice comes from. That's where the interpersonal conflict comes from. That's where the, the classic of the plot, like the, the thing about a plot is a character has to need or want something and, and for there to be a real story, there's to be something in their way.
Cass Morris: And both the desire and the obstacles are functions of the world. and [00:29:00] that to me is so much about like
The Difference Between World Building and Lore
---
Cass Morris: I think a lot about the difference between world building and lore, because I think some people conflate the terms.
Zach Armstrong: Ooh, tell me about that.
Cass Morris: So like the difference between the two I think is world building is the conditions as they exist. It's the things you see on a table when you walk in. It's the scent in. the air. It's. How people interact with their environment. Lore is
Zach Armstrong: Trash and why to-
Cass Morris: yeah, Yeah.
Cass Morris: yeah.
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Cass Morris: Lore is the, the, the list of kings lore is the story of how these people became the people that they are. And a little of that's important, but too much of it can, can feel overwhelming.
Cass Morris: And you're like, okay, why do I need to care about this guy who died 2000 years ago if he's not important to the plot now? Is it important that your reader know about each of these kings, or is it simply important that they know this is a nation that has had an unbroken line of kings,
Zach Armstrong: Mm mm.
Cass Morris: you know, that is gonna shape a [00:30:00] society differently than a nation that has never had a king, that has always had representative government of some kind, or that has always had.
Cass Morris: You know, priest, rulers or something like that. Do we need to know exactly every detail of how that came to be and, and who the major figures are? Not necessarily,
Zach Armstrong: Yeah.
Cass Morris: But giving the sense that that does exist, that there is a history in your world, that it does reach back, that things happen off screen. You know, like off the sides of the page.
Cass Morris: One of the kindest reviews I ever got, I just, I loved this review so much because it got it, it got it. The, the thing that the reviewer said was that Cass Morris knows what her characters are doing when they leave the page in the same way one knows where one's hand is in the dark. And I was like.
Cass Morris: That means I've nailed it. Yes, because I do, like you asked me what Vitinius Obir does when he leaves [00:31:00] this room. I may not have ever thought about it before, but because I have built my world sufficiently enough, I can come up with that answer quickly because I know my world and I know my characters and they, for me, they grow together and, and there's so many different ways to do world building.
Cass Morris: Some people will build the entire world before they start the plot. Some people start plot first and then have to like backfill their world, building both valid ways of going about it. I'm very organic. For me, they grow together. I am building my dollhouse And making my dolls at the same time and finding out what happens with them.
Cass Morris: It's not a brief process. I can't say I recommend it. It's a lengthy process I have to explore. I have to explore a lot in the act of telling myself the story in the first place to figure out what the plot actually is and not just, Ooh, look at my interesting characters wandering into each other and having conversations.
Cass Morris: The first draft of From Unseen Fire, like nothing happened.
Zach Armstrong: Right.
Cass Morris: Just conversations.
Zach Armstrong: I, I remember, I remember you talking about the difference 'cause [00:32:00] readers as, and I fully recommend all of the books that are out. You mentioned a difference between the first one and the next
Cass Morris: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: your knowledge of pacing
Cass Morris: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Zach Armstrong: Will say as somebody I, I adore, I adore From Unseen Fire and I adore all of them From Unseen Fire might be favorite just because the way that things very much happened in From Unseen Fire, but the way you got to sit with the characters,
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: Felt like I was, and it wasn't that there wasn't any conflict, there was still plenty of conflict. That book starts with a bit of a change,
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: To say the least.
Cass Morris: Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: so it's.
Zach Armstrong: There, there are still plenty of motion, but I felt like I was marinating with the characters...
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: ...was still on. I felt like I got to marinate with all of them, and then in the next two books when, when all of a sudden I was angry that HBO hadn't picked it up yet. After reading the next two books I [00:33:00] like, like it was, like the pace was
Cass Morris: Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: too fast, but much faster. Also gave really fun weight to some of the really fun reveals you have with your world building that happen out in the campaigns with the magic system and
Cass Morris: Yeah,
Zach Armstrong: All I'm gonna say because you need to go read it. 'cause you did some stuff. You did some
Cass Morris: I had fun. I had fun
Zach Armstrong: in there.
Cass Morris: Well, I learned so much along the way. Both like you say about pacing, about how to show the world, about the craft of doing your, like doing your world building and using your world building in your book are. Two different things.
Zach Armstrong: and 'cause I was about to elucidate my previous point just 'cause of that because I got excited. Dear Listener, you heard me say, oh, she revealed something about the magic system. And it wasn't just Cass saying, oh look, I'm smart. The magic system is cool. There was the, the plot of where the characters were, what they were doing, and then how the plot of the magic system with that [00:34:00] created moments that the characters had because when I, because when I was thinking about that moment, I gave the compliment. I was not thinking of like a, a flow chart was all of a sudden very cool. I was literally picturing the characters doing what they were doing in the moment when something became clear about the world to them as they worked together.
Zach Armstrong: so like even
Cass Morris: I am trying to guess which point it was. I'm,
Zach Armstrong: Yeah.
Cass Morris: I might know, but I'm not sure. Yeah.
Zach Armstrong: there, there's one point of discovery
Cass Morris: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: that we'll we'll talk about obviously once we're done here. but for me it was so tied to the characters and,
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: the, there were stakes in the moment and then there was a discovery and, and, and then things happened and it was very satisfying.
Zach Armstrong: And I remember the characters talking about it and breaking it down and all that sort of thing, and what it meant to everybody involved as characters. So it wasn't, it wasn't just, oh, it's Cass, you know, thought up the next, you know, [00:35:00] burning metals in your mouth system that's super cool, or whatever.
Zach Armstrong: Right? It was like, it was attached to the, the characters themselves and, and their goals. It was very, yeah. So.
Cass Morris: They, they completely go together. For me, that's, but like I was saying, building it and using it are different parts, like not completely different skill sets, but certainly different tools in your toolbox. And it's possible to be really good at one and weak on the other in some ways. Learn Learning is continues to be part of the process.
The Craft of Writing and Editing
---
Cass Morris: I'm still, I hope, I'm always learning. I hope from Unseen Fire is the worst book I ever publish. You know, like it's, that was my debut novel. I think it's really good. I think it's a very strong debut, frankly. I will, I will fluff myself up. I will fluff myself up. I, I can see where I've gotten stronger in the craft of.
Cass Morris: Showing the world to the and and giving that marination while still keeping a little bit of a clip ear pace. I have gotten better at that with each book. I've had people tell me that the Bloodstained Shade [00:36:00] feels faster than the first two books, even though it is a solid 20,000 words longer than book two, which is in turn 20,000 words longer than book.
Cass Morris: Yeah, it is.
Zach Armstrong: I had no idea they were that different in length.
Cass Morris: are, they're about, it's about 20,000. What's it From Unseen Fire is about 1 46, I think.
Zach Armstrong: Okay.
Cass Morris: Give Way To Night about 1 64, 1 65 ish and Bloodstained Shade is straight up. 180 5. Yeah. that's, it's a chunker. That one's chunker. Yeah, but I had to get it all in.
Zach Armstrong: Right.
Cass Morris: I had to get everything in.
Zach Armstrong: I, I was, delighted at the announcement of a book four, of
Cass Morris: Yes, it will exist someday. Someday
Zach Armstrong: that happens whenever that
Cass Morris: I need to write something else that someone will actually pay me for first, which is why I'm working on the different project, but like, it's still there. Book four. Every once in a while I'll just open up the file and be like, Yeah.
Cass Morris: Yeah. I, I still know. I still [00:37:00] know where this is going.
Cass Morris: I know exactly. I know. I don't know exactly, but I know the broad strokes of what happens in book four. Like I said, I'm a discovery writer. A lot of it happens along the way, but I know the broad strokes, it will exist someday.
Zach Armstrong: Where you talked about, you know, you're building the world building and then integrating into the plot of how it happens with the characters. You kind
Zach Armstrong: of build them
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: How close does that process bring you to being able to get the right kind of.
Zach Armstrong: Payoff for both your characters and your plot. Like
Cass Morris: Mm-hmm.
Zach Armstrong: you said it right, so much slower, but does that bring you closer to like, oh, I now, this moment is easier to distill when Sempronius is here and then this is gonna happen. It's connected to this web. Hmm.
Cass Morris: I think so. I think because I take my time on the front end usually. Once I, once I have finally got a full draft and I edit a lot as I go, I, my current project, the folder of things I have tossed out is, I think currently larger than the folder of the actual manuscript. Some of those scenes are [00:38:00] sort of the same, and I'm just, I've, I've moved it so that I still have the original, but I can rewrite.
Cass Morris: But I do a lot of that along the way. It's a very loopy system where I, I have to sort of like, oh no, I've changed my mind about something. I need to go back and fix other things. But once I do finally get to a full final draft of it, or even just like a full first draft, it feels like it's the fifth draft at that point.
Cass Morris: And then it's usually, that's usually when I need an outside eye. That's when I go to either my agent or the developmental editor that I used for Bloodstain Shade, who was amazing. Getting that the outside eye and, and I'll still know, I'm like, there's something that's not clicking. There's something that's not quite there.
Cass Morris: There's something that's not, the pieces aren't pulled together yet. And that person will usually point something out that I then realize connects to like six other things and suddenly I've got a solution for six problems in one fix. And it's, I do think a lot of that is because doing the work of the [00:39:00] world, building with the characters means.
Cass Morris: Those threads are there. I just, after a certain point, I'm too close to it. I can't see how to pull them together until someone else goes, oh yeah, this, these, that's like, that. She's a mirror for her character. And then it's like zing, like, oh, you're right. They, they are, they're mirrors. They have, they have this and that.
Cass Morris: Oh, wait, knowing that just unlocked a gajillion things. So I'm a much, I'm a much faster editor than I am drafter because by the time I get to that point in the process, The hardest work of telling myself the story is done and then it is about refinement. It is about how do I make the most of the story that I have and the most of the characters that I have and get, like you said, those points of payoff for each of the characters.
Cass Morris: it's, it's because the work is there, it, the underbelly all along and I spend so much. time with it and with the characters as I'm building. I love the process because the moment when you do get that [00:40:00] bing, here's the solution. It feels So. good. It's such a rush to be like, I know how to, I know how to do it now I know how to make this book a book. And not just scattered scenes. It's such like I live, I live for that feeling.
Zach Armstrong: That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, Cass, thank you so much for coming on and sharing about your process. and then also just about the, you know, world building in general and how we can think about it for whatever. The creative projects are, for anybody who hasn't found you online yet, where, where can they go hear World Building For Masochists, and where should they keep up with you?
Cass Morris: World Building For Masochists is available on all major podcasting sites. You can also go straight to world building for masochists dot pod bean.com. I have a link tree. It's just Cass R Morris. If you search Cass R Morris, anywhere, you're gonna find me. There's only one other Cass Morris in the world that I know of.
Cass Morris: She's an interior decorator in California, so not that one. The other one, [00:41:00] Cass Morris Writes Dot Com is my main website. I am mostly these days on Blue Sky and Instagram for socials. And I'm Cass Cass r Morris, or Cass Morris Wrights at both those places
Zach Armstrong: Fantastic. Well, Dear Listener, as Felix says, in From Unseen Fire, first book of the Aven cycle, take me to Iberia with you and you can count on me until you run out of numbers.
Zach Armstrong: I.
Zach Armstrong: Talk to you next time.
Creators and Guests
